And then they began to come
After I became the director of the law school or the native law program, I taught there four years in that program. And we would teach the students how to write law school exams. Because there’s a way of doing that. And if you don’t know how to do that, then it’s going to be very difficult your first year.
And I had always thought I wanted to go into private practice. But I didn’t really feel confident enough to be able to look after the family. So I had a mortgage and I had expenses. And so the law school approached me once I graduated and asked if I would be interested in being the first director of the native law program. And it just so happened that that was a good thing for me because I thought I needed a salary, secure income coming in to look after my family.
And so I decided that was ideal opportunity to be able to work in the area of native law with native law students and also look after my family. So that was the reason why I took that job. It was a good thing for me at the time. And part of it was to go out and recruit other native law students. And so I travelled the whole province. Went and talked to high school students one week a month. I would take a week, I had a planned schedule where I would be going somewhere. I talked to high school students, college students. We had times where I would, in advance, have organized a time where I would talk to the high school students in a certain area. The next day move on to another high school or a college. So I spent a week like that each month.
And then they began to come. They started coming to university. The ones that were in high school, we call it a planned dreaming to go to law school. Got them talking about what they would like to do with the rest of their lives and then began to talk to them about law school. And gradually they began to come to university and then to law school. So it took awhile, but over a period of time, if you went out and began to groom the ones that thought they might become a lawyer—of course I would use myself as an example. That here am I coming from a background where my dad was a trapper and my mum had grade three education. And here if I could do it, you people can do it. There’s no question that you people can do it. And I would talk to them about what a lawyer would do and what they would have to do and how great it would be.
So you just got people beginning to dream that they could become a lawyer, and eventually they started to come. Got all the institutions in British Columbia, every once in awhile there would be one of them—I remember one in Tofino, she was from Ahousat. And I went specifically, there was only two of them up there, the one didn’t show up but the other did. And she was about a half hour late, three quarters of an hour late and so I just waited for her. Eventually she came to UBC. Finished a degree, went to law school and became a lawyer, First Nation lawyer. So just those kinds of people that had some interest and if they didn’t, even in public school, I would talk to maybe grade seven and grade six, grade seven students. They had no idea what lawyers were. But you began to get them to think about what it is that they’d like to do with the rest of their lives. And then for part of that you’d talk to them about a lawyer and just began to germinate these ideas in them that you could become a lawyer. Look at this guy. If he could do it, I’m sure I can do it.
And so they began to come. I remember there was a student from up in the interior, and she didn’t have a whole bunch of background, academic background. But got to law school. She was very personable. Everybody loved her. But she had a difficult time getting to law school, and somebody must have encouraged her to come to law school. Because on her own, it would have been difficult for her to actually think that she could have made it to law school.
Yeah, and some of them I don’t—I’ve never actually remembered. They’re just kids in the class. I mean, I would go to a high school and out of the high school there might have been 200 students in 11 and 12, and out of that 200 there might have been 6 or 7—so they would take them out of class, and I would be there for an hour. And I was able to speak with them directly. We had a little snack or something to eat and I’d tell them about me and how I grew up and what law school’s all about. But for the most part what I was doing is getting them to dream about what they wanted to do. And so there were students that came eventually that said, you know what, I remember you coming to the high school and talking to me about it, and here I am.
Law school for chief and council
One of the goals that I wanted to establish [a program similar to the Saskatchewan program]. But, you know, the Saskatchewan program actually is a very, very good program. Very good program. Each summer they would have professors from the law schools across Canada, all over the place. And they would come for the two months and a very collegial group of people. And our goal was to teach them about law school, teach them a little bit about the course. They taught property law, legal writing, criminal law and tort law.
We even had a moot, and it was a very intense summer program. They were all First Nation people, so they all related to one another. Always telling these First Nation stories [and] laughing about it. But the program was one where you learned a lot, but you also learned in a setting with other First Nations law students. And you learned how to write those exams. You had to write those exams all of the time. So you got used to that, and by the time you got to law school, your first year school, you’re a little bit ahead of the game than the rest of the other students that didn’t go through the course.
But also my intention was to sort of do some practical law for chief and council or for other people. So they would come to the law school for two days, about a day and a half, two days, chiefs and councillors, and they would learn something about law that related to them. Mostly it was self-government courses, land and all sorts of other things that we were talking about. I think at the time when I was the director of the native law program, one of the big things at the time was self-government. Still is. But back then it was more really quite leading edge. Everybody was wanting to know what self-government would look like. So we had these courses, various different courses, land management. Of course they had amended the Indian Act that allowed for First Nations to have their own land management systems. Not really self-government, but they could manage within the Indian Act their own land.
So it was more of that kind of stuff that we were doing. It was quite well received. I think we did maybe a couple of seminars per year. So a couple of these two day things per year. And it was quite good. We did all the material. They would come. They would pay so much money, and it was just like going to one of the law school continuing education programs. It was the same idea. Guest speakers at lunchtime. And so it was quite good because when they left, they all said they wanted more of that. So had they continued that, today the law school, UBC Law School probably at this point in time would have the reputation of having all of these courses that were really practical for First Nations across Canada. But I don’t think it continued.
People would contact me and ask if we had any courses or I knew any courses that would help them with self-government. And enough of those people asked me that I thought, we should be putting these courses on. And so we tried it out, and it was very well received. And so we just continued that. Had we continued that of course like anything else, you build that kind of experience, and you become known for that after awhile, that you have this experience with the people that know all about this. And so people would begin to expect that you can do other things in that area. ButI left it in 1990. It was a good start anyway.
I remember one of the students who graduated with me, she was working I think for Legal Aid and then for whatever reason she gave that up. And so she wasn’t working at the time, and so she came and I knew she was very interested in the area. And so we were putting on these self-government programs. And so she—I think she worked for me for at least one full year in self-government. And then I employed a couple of other people who had expertise in the area as well. But a lot of times it was the students who were going to law school that we could utilize and pay them, give them some money.
Building relationships
Well, one of the things I did was make sure that I knew the students very well. Because just like anything, anybody else, each student will have challenges. And once you become familiar with the student and develop that kind of relationship and you understand what their challenges are, you can help them with their challenges. It isn’t just writing the law school exams. That’s in first year. So you’re going to do that. But the larger issues that they have, everybody has in their lives as they go through, maybe it’s finances. It might be roommates. It could be all sorts of things. But once you get to know them, you’re a person that is a resource for them, that can help them through the various challenges they have. And even with the articles, getting articles, you can help them with that as well
It’s the total package. You’ve got to be able to, first of all, relate to them, develop relationships, begin to understand them, help them to feel comfortable. Maybe even speak to professors. It’s the whole ball of wax. You can’t just assume that you being there and them coming to you, asking you for help is going to work. You’ve got to be able to go to them and develop those relationships. So you’re meeting with them on a regular basis, getting to know them and individually knowing enough about them so they feel comfortable enough that you begin to understand when they’re having problems. You can see where they’re missing class or there’s something wrong. Somebody tells you about it and you have enough relationship with them that you can go to them and talk to them. And they open up to you and tell you where the problem is. Then you can begin to work with them on that, whatever the problem is.
They had a lot of directors or associate directors at UBC. Some of them very, very academically qualified. Writing papers, researching. But I don’t know that there was a program that they laid out developed by the law school, you know, where you would have the dean or the associate dean and maybe another professor who would sit with you and some other students. And you’d talk about what this would look like and then develop a plan and move forward with it and adjust it as you go along. I don’t think there was ever anything like that. When I was doing it, really I think the law school basically kind of gave me a carte blanche. I would tell the dean what I was doing. And he was happy.
I think probably the thinking of the law school after awhile [was] that you want someone who is faculty rather than someone who’s just staff, because you want—to be faculty you have to be academically qualified. And I wasn’t academically qualified like the other professors of course. I didn’t have a master’s degree or a PhD degree. I didn’t have that.
I think I was very fortunate in the sense that you didn’t have people who kind of had an idea, this is the way the program should work. They were just happy to have someone who was First Nation, a lawyer who was doing whatever they felt should be happening. I think the underlying goal was to get more students to come to law school. And so I was going out recruiting. There were students that were beginning to come. But what the added aspect of the program was when I was there was, it wasn’t just a law school for law students. It was a school where people from the First Nations communities could come in and learn some aspect of the law. And I think that was really important, still is important. If you could have programs that maybe once or twice a year, like the continuing legal education programs, but you could concentrate on maybe one aspect of First Nation law.